Yes, I know of that programme, but it's not like it's the foundational manual for stutter. Whatever is in those pages is not sacrosanct. Also, of course stutterers can improve. That's what we're both talking about. But a stutterer is not an "athlete" - getting better at speaking _in our case_ is not comparable to getting better at running. If you find the analogy useful, go ahead and stick to it! :) I just can't honestly say I find it terribly interesting. I'd much rather talk about specific ways of getting better at managing a stutter _as a disability_, and not make it into some sort of "craft". Again, those who have a lot to struggle with should not feel like it's their own failure to improve that's holding them back. Stutter can be terribly difficult to deal with. You know this. Do note that I'm consistently talking about exactly this: *Getting better at managing a stutter*. That means it's not about giving up or sitting back and not trying to do something anymore. If you find that this is the mentality behind the kind of approach I'm presenting here, I daresay you're mistaken. Our conceptualization might be different, but our abstract goal is the same: Getting better. I honestly don't know why you'd think that I'm trying to convince anyone they'll never get better. Perhaps it's just different language use after all. But for my part, I'm going to continue to use the terms that I find best describe our situation, and I'm going to continue to present a practical and realistic take on it. I see no need to pretend like we're doing sports. - *(I'm trying to address your points as best I can, but I think you should remember to address mine as well. I get the impression you're not quite reading the details, since you're stating things that should be moot from the exchange already.)*